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Thread: Gun/Ammo Sales/Demand

  1. #31
    Gold Member Unca Walt's Avatar
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    I threw away the cardboard cartons (empties). I DO have a coupla open-but-still-half-full cartons.

    Right now, I am waiting for a response to the emails I sent. Actually, they DID respond to them with an auto-answer that my question will be handled within a day or two.

    But ain't no fargin way Himself is gonna pay postage to send a coupla pounds of bullets. Uh-unh.

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  3. #32
    Gold Member Unca Walt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbonz View Post
    Walt, quick question was there any lot numbers or production numbers, only reason I ask is that I will send mine back to them without firing it, I don't want the hassle.

    Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
    YOWZA.

    Sorry I din' see your question...

    Yuppers. That's the first thing they axed me. Here's whut I wrote:

    AM22 mark on both cartons. [that I still have left]

    Both of the cartons I have exhibit the same Lot Number: 1GG135.

  4. #33
    Gold Member Unca Walt's Avatar
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    Update:

    Federal sent the UPS to pick up a box from my front porch:

    Contains two baggies with taken-apart cartridges... one Federal, one Winchester. There is a definite visual/tactile difference between the two propellants in the baggies. Federal is dark, dull, a tad sticky. Winchester is light gray, sparkly. I pointed this out in a note to them. Also included in the box was a cardboard carton and a half-pound of unfired Federals.

    I told them when UPS got it (Monday). They sent a note thanking me for the heads-up.

    We'll see.

  5. #34
    Silver Member TomD's Avatar
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    Walt, the appearance of the powder doesn't mean much. I've been a reloader for 30 years and have 20-30 different powders in stock right now. They are all different and the appearance has squat to do with the performance.

    Modern nitrocellulose based powders rely on pressure to really combust and the residue that you're describing sounds like insufficient pressure. Exactly what Federal are you using? There are a bunch of different kinds. I shoot Federal .22 in several varieties all the time with no problem but I bought most of my .22 ammo a while ago.
    "Liberalism isn’t Western culture, but its corpse."-Richard Fernandez

    "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within."

    nothing good ever came from the upper class paying the lowest class to terrorize the middle class

  6. #35
    Gold Member Unca Walt's Avatar
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    TomD: Yowza. I'm a reloader, too. Shotgun, pistol, rifle, and even cannon (of course, the reloading of my cannon is a slightly different in procedure)

    I mentioned the appearance of the propellant because my shotgun powder looks different from my rifle powder which looks different from my cannon powder. But when I load my 9mm's, the powder always looks like 9mm powder and nuffin else (if that makes any sense). I figgered more data could not hurt.

    The FEDERAL I had trouble with: .22 LR with the Lot # and Type listed previously.

    I know the "look" of the propellant may not mean anything, and I mentioned that to the Federal folks. I... oh. oh. I thought I had posted the note to Federal where I gave them all the info I could think of. I am pretty sure it will answer some of your questions.

    Here it is:

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Federal Guys,

    My rifle is a Mossberg 702 Plinkster. The other two are a Ruger 10/22 and (IIRC) a Marlin Model 60.

    I took apart one Federal and one Winchester cartridge. It may very well
    mean nothing, but I note the propellant from the Federal was duller, darker,
    and slightly sticky compared to the Winchester (sparkly, dry, lighter
    colored).

    Of course that could just be your mix making the difference. Or it could be
    a lead to your problem. As an old retarded Quality Engineer (IBM), I always
    appreciated any input.

    I've included the opened cartridges (in baggies) in the shipping box for
    your comparison.

    Your instructions below are a tad abstruse, so here is what I will do,
    hoping it will work:

    There will be a sealed box (6"x5"x4") left on my front porch containing a
    carton and a handful of the bullets.

    I live in a rural area, so the UPS guy can just come and get it with no
    problem.

    The sealed carton will be placed out there and left (for as long as
    necessary) beginning Monday, May 15.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    UPS picked up the parcel, and I gave Federal a heads up... they thanked me for the note.
    Last edited by Unca Walt; 05-20-2017 at 08:45 AM.

  7. #36
    Gold Member Unca Walt's Avatar
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    UPDATE:

    I sent an email to FEDERAL yestiddy. Got a response in hours. Here it is:

    Hi Walt:

    We just received the test results late yesterday. We also ran into issues with this ammo. The ammo was made in 2015 and when we checked that lot number, surprisingly we have not had any other customers contact us with issues. Do you have any more ammo from that lot (1GG135) that we can pick up?

    Thanks
    Federal


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I answered with this:

    Federal,

    Yup. I found some more of them. Same lot. "Target Grade Performance" If I
    can temporarily stand a gummy Ruger Single Six, I can use them in that --
    and perhaps boil it afterwards.

    Thing is, when I bought these... it was in those times when you had to know
    somebody to get them. And even then the price was always between .20c and
    .25c per round. Like every other person with a .22, I stopped at every
    sporting goods store I saw during that period.

    They (the rounds) are a pain in the ass, but my grandling has put five
    cartons of them through her Crickett (thereby REALLY learning the need to
    clean your weapon), my son has done likewise with his bolt action.

    It is funky, and unusable ammo in any sort of auto, but I laid out an awful
    lot of money for it. (more than $1K) I have no receipts, the stores range
    from Florida to Georgia.

    I had 16 cartons, IIRC. I just found two last cartons, so I cannot say I
    could not use your contaminated product.

    Alla the above said, I see no reason to give away the last of the stuff I
    bought.

    Walt



  8. #37
    Gold Member Unca Walt's Avatar
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    The Latest:

    So Federal sends me an email -- the C&P:

    Walt:

    Anything we pickup we will send replacements for what is returned.

    Let us know if you want us to pickup any of the ammo, if so how much?

    Thanks
    Federal


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This, I found to be outside the normal bounds of the gun industry's "stand by your product" standards.

    So this is what I answered. (Sometimes, I take no prisoners -- a failing of mine, I know.)



    Federal,

    Not worth the time. And I've really gotten tired of this whole problem -- I
    will use your bad ammo up in wheelguns or single-shot rifles.

    This sort of thing happens, I guess... but I am 76, and got my first rifle
    when I was 8 years old (still have it: 1895 Winchester), and this is the
    ONLY brand that ever cost so much (not your fault for the retail price
    gouging) and failed so drastically. More fails than all other competitors in
    the world combined in 68 years of shooting.

    This is also the only brand in those 68 years of shooting that cost me
    gunsmith money. <-- My neighboer took his Marlin Model 60 to a gunsmith
    when it jammed again with Target Grade Performance ammo. The gunsmith said
    the mess had gotten so far into the action***, it was not fixable by my
    neighbor. It was my ammo, so I paid.

    ***Wonked up the mechanism to where IF the trigger still was able to cause
    it to work, it would only strike the center of the .22 casing.

    Bottom line: Like I said before, I am not saying I was unable to use your
    ammo... because except for what I sent you and two more unopened cartons, I
    used it all. So I am not looking for any handouts.

    But -- and please look at this from my POV -- You have just told me if I buy
    your stuff and it turns out it is made of putty and gasoline just like
    before, you will send me replacements for any infired rounds, providing I
    box them up to your specs. Any other fix is mine to rectify***

    ***A good number of times, the ONLY way to get one of your fudge-packets out
    of the chamber was to wire back the charging handle and HAMMER the round out
    with a rod down the muzzle. Talk about a washer-biter situation...

    MANY MANY MANY other times, there would be two rounds -- deformed -- jammed
    in the action. No, I did not save any of these.

    Bottom of the Bottom Line:

    I would be foolish to ever use FEDERAL stuff again.

    Not worth the expense, the danger, the hassle, or the huge amounts of dirty
    mud left in my guns.

    You can quote me on that. And I will update those awaiting this news.

    Walt

  9. #38
    Gold Member Eat Beef's Avatar
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    What exactly did you want them to do?

    It's not really their fault that you continued to use it after you figured out it was junk. They offered to replace everything you didn't shoot.

    I can see why you're angry, but how did you expect them to rectify the situation, replace all the ammo that was so bad you already shot thousands of rounds of it? Buy you new guns?
    Everyone's entitled to their bonehead point of view.

  10. #39
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    If I was Federal I would just wait for you to say there was some ammo to return and ignore your complaining.
    If you want to do the exchange , great , if not you can go away mad , just go away.
    You are obviously taking the position of being one of those "people you can't satisfy all the time".
    Pfft..............

  11. #40
    Gold Member Unca Walt's Avatar
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    Having been around a while with gunstuff for six-plus decades, what I would have done as a rep from Federal is probably the following:

    1. Admit (like they did) that CLEARLY the customer was not operating a scam.

    2. Given the fact of Step 1, I would check with the management (providing they were not just hired from United Airlines), and clear the decks with Step 3.

    Step 3. Tell the customer: "Send the other two cartons like you did the first two back to us. We will respond with eight cartons of good stuff to replace your UNUSED four cartons to demonstrate our acknowledgement of the trouble, safety issues, and costs that resulted from our Quality Control failure."

    Beefies and Fullsafe:
    Bros... You go into a restaurant, and order a steak. It comes out with a sticky footprint on it. But because the footprint is on the bottom, you do not notice it until you are halfway through the steak.

    To put this same question to you as you sit there and gag... "What exactly did you want them to do?"


    Oh, and the people you have invited to the dinner ALSO have icky footprints on their steaks... again, not noticed until they'd eaten most of them... and one person got sick (that would be the gun-to-the-gunsmith equivalent).

    So the restaurant owner says: "Wrap up the steaks in your own (ammo-acceptable) packaging and send the steaks into the kitchen so I can see them."

    You do this.

    Restaurant owner says: "Yup, they's funky-ass, diseased footprints all over ALL of these steaks, sho' nuff. I WILL REPLACE THE PART OF THE STEAK YOU DID NOT EAT, providing you bring it all to me in a special package shipment that you are required to make your own self." (Remember? They do not do any sort of packaging. YOU gotta go get it.)

    Now, guys... see? Is this what you would call satisfactory management of a genuine fuckup on your company's (the restaurant) part?

    The parallel is close enough that you should be able to relate without any more difficulty.

    The cost to Federal would be infinitesimal. The exposure to Federal is not infinitesimal. In point of actual fact, it is simply good business practice to think while in your customer's metaphysical shoes. The reasons are sound.

    Lemme show ya:

    "The customer dissatisfaction survey found that for every 100 retail customers who have a bad experience, the organization is likely to lose around 35 current and potential customers – a strong multiplier effect due to those disgruntled customers telling others of their experience."


    This ain't winging it; this is taught in Management School.

    There's real data:

    "...conducted by the Wharton Business School at the University of Pennsylvania and the Verde Group. Of the 1,186 US shoppers surveyed, only 6% of shoppers who experienced a problem with a retailer actually contacted the retailer afterwards to register a complaint, but 31% instead told friends, family or colleagues what had happened.

    "Of the 31% who told about their experience, 8% told one person, another 8% told two people and 6% told six or more people. Even though these shoppers don’t complain to the store, they do share their pain with lots of other people.
    [Note: Do the math -- that's a LOT of folks getting the word.]

    "Complaints snowball among shoppers who are not directly involved. Almost half (48%) of those surveyed reported avoiding a store in the past because of someone else’s negative experiences.

    "Among those who encountered a problem themselves, 33% said they would “definitely not” or “probably not” return."


    Now, among those like Unca Walt, who were First Person recipients of crap instead of product, we have this datum:

    "Indeed, the survey showed that 46% of those who had a problem expected they would definitely or probably experience the same problem in future."

    And in order to pass the Management Training Program, you have to know this stone fact:

    "If someone is motivated enough to complain, they will be motivated enough to tell all their friends, family and work colleagues. If you make complainers feel you have offered them a sympathetic ear, you will stop their migration to your competitors and you will stop them influencing others to migrate away with them."

    http://www.cuttingedgepr.com/article...n-business.asp

    The above does not originate with "can't be satisfied" Unca. It is GOOD BUSINESS PRACTICE.
    Last edited by Unca Walt; 06-08-2017 at 05:54 PM.

  12. #41
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    "Bottom line: Like I said before, I am not saying I was unable to use your
    ammo... because except for what I sent you and two more unopened cartons, I
    used it all. (((((((So I am not looking for any handouts."))))))))),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,kind of has contradiction written all over it ------- don't ya think?

    Your analogy is nonsense , a comedic non sequitur at best.
    If you were a Cabela's with a real beef and a reputation at risk who was caused injury by their product your management solution might have legs but Federal views you as a tick trying to suck some blood out of it and will be happy to brush you off to go tell all the other ticks who will realize they can't take advantage of the big company beyond the original reasonable offer they extend.
    Business management 101

  13. #42
    Gold Member Unca Walt's Avatar
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    You are moving the goalposts, and then finding it comedic that I ain't going through them.

    (snork) I was answering YOUR and Beef's question about what should they have done.

    I supplied them with hard data, the product lot, pounds of unfired bullets, yada. They agreed it was NFG. And the hassle of the shipping (boxing, yada AGAIN) is simply not worth it. The crappy bullets DO go bang in single-shot rifles. They are labeled "ideal for semi-automatics" BTW.

    Had I known at the beginning that all the cartons were full of tar and gasoline powder, then I most ricky-tick would have sent them all back. And yes, I told them that I was not looking for handouts. In print.

    And I wasn't. But I DID point out to you what they should have done (what I would have done) from a business POV. I did not say anything to them about freebies except "nope".

    I left them with a fair assessment of my logic for my safety (and my grandlings and neighbors who use my ammo) being sure to stay away from FEDERAL.

    I put it to you:

    Having seen this from the beginning -- every word -- which of the following three brands would you pick up? Each carton has the same price and same number of bullets...

    A. FEDERAL Target Grade Performance .22's

    B. CCI .22's

    C. Aguila .22's

    Be honest. Your thought and call.

    And I repeat: To answer YOU, they should have done as I said.

    To answer ME, they told me to package up the jacked-off-on steak remains, send the steak in a good box back to the kitchen, and they would reimburse me for the part that I sent back and did not eat. Bad business answer, from any angle.

    I hope I have eased off comedy and non-seqitur and tick-sucking and made myself crystal clear.

    Bear in mind YOUR likely choice between FEDERAL and CCI... since you now have actual data (confirmed by FEDERAL) and not opinion.

    I'll stick with CCI/Aguila.
    Last edited by Unca Walt; 06-09-2017 at 12:37 PM.

  14. #43
    Gold Member Unca Walt's Avatar
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    Just thought of another thing that might get through to you:

    I DID NOT GET REIMBURSED FOR THE POUNDS OF AMMO I HAVE ALREADY SENT THEM.


    Izzat a non-seqitur tick-suck? Hm? Am I being a completely unsatisfiable, pushy customer they should -- per you -- "just ignore"?

    Would you be in my corner if I asked them for the dirty rounds back? How far do I have to fucking go before you get off the tower?

    If I promised to follow your advice on the matter, would you tell me if I should come forward like David Copperfield with a bowl in my hand to ask for my bullets back... or to be reimbursed for them?

    Should I? Or is that too far, also.
    Last edited by Unca Walt; 06-09-2017 at 12:53 PM.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unca Walt View Post
    Just thought of another thing that might get through to you:

    I DID NOT GET REIMBURSED FOR THE POUNDS OF AMMO I HAVE ALREADY SENT THEM.


    Izzat a non-seqitur tick-suck? Hm? Am I being a completely unsatisfiable, pushy customer they should -- per you -- "just ignore"?

    Would you be in my corner if I asked them for the dirty rounds back? How far do I have to fucking go before you get off the tower?

    If I promised to follow your advice on the matter, would you tell me if I should come forward like David Copperfield with a bowl in my hand to ask for my bullets back... or to be reimbursed for them?

    Should I? Or is that too far, also.

    My common sense would have told me to work out those details before I sent them anything to begin with , but that's just me.
    You have an opportunity to get exchanged out of the ammo you still have , I would take it.
    You imply you should be reimbursed for ammo you have used and have no details to back it up,,,,pfft.
    I bought a brick of Aguila sub sonic once that had the same result in my Buckmark,,,I stopped shooting it and threw it away.
    Would I NOT buy Federal because of your issue? , not hardly , but I prefer CCI and Winchester anyway.
    You want to be treated like you are special , every customer does , but in the end you are just another customer with a gripe,,,,deal with it how you must , don't buy Federal again.

  16. #45
    Gold Member Unca Walt's Avatar
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    I sincerely apologize for my crankiness yestiddy.

    My busted back was just killing me, and I had no reserve left.

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